beboots | Les personnes insensibles m’énervent

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Les personnes insensibles m’énervent

(I realize that most of the people who watch this journal will have no idea what I am saying, but sometimes I need to let things out in a language other than English. I don’t want to offend anybody.)

Il y a des temps dont j’ai de la difficulté à comprendre les personnes qui parlent mon lange natal. Je suis anglophone, mais parfois… :(

Peut-être c’est parce que je n’ai pas été confronté par beaucoup de francophones méchantes, probablement parce ce que je ne parle pas avec trop de francophones quotidiennement. Tandis que j’ai besoin de parler avec les anglophones chaque journée, il semble parfois que les anglophones sont beaucoup plus maladroites.

Ils ne pensent plus quand ils parlent ou écrivent, car ils n’ont pas besoin de la faire.

La majorité des personnes avec qui je parle sur l’internet sont des personnes qui parlent l’anglais. Je sais qu’il il y a beaucoup de personnes parmi eux qui ne sont PAS anglophone et je trouve que ces allophones (les personnes qui sont ni anglophone ni francophone) sont les plus gentilles personnes. Les finnoises, les argentines, et beaucoup d’autres… Ils utilisent la grammaire avec beaucoup plus d’attention que les anglophones, et ils choisissent leurs mots avec soin.

Mais les anglophones…? Ils pensent rapidement, et ils écrivent dans la même manière : sans penser.

Premièrement, je veux dire que je ne veux pas critiquer seulement les américains, car je suis certaine qu’il y a les canadiens tant que les britanniques qui comprissent cette groupe.

J’ai eu plusieurs incidents pendant cette dernière semaine ou j’ai sentis… le malaise. J’ai lu ce que cette personne (un anglophone) a décidé de typer et partager avec la monde, et je me poser la question : « pourquoi n’as-tu pas PENSÉ comment les autres personnes interprétera tes mots avant que tu as cliqué le bouton send? » Cette personne critiquait les choses qui sont très insignifiantes, mais dans une manière que j’ai interpréter comme brusque, impolie, et manquant de la respecte. J’ai pensé un mot anglais qui est très similaire au mot français pour un cerf femelle.

Sur l’internet, on a souvent seulement les mots écrites (et peut-être les émoticons) pour communiquer nos messages. On n’a pas l’opportunité d’utiliser ni nos voix, ni le langage de nos corps… Donc le « ton » du message peut être interpréter comme impoli BEAUCOUP plus facilement. Je ne peux pas vous juger sauf en utilisant vos mos écrits. La leçon que vous avez besoin de tirer de mes mots-ci? Relire ce que vous avez écrit. Je comprends que nous sommes tous anonymes ici sur l’internet, mais les personnes qui lisent vos mots ont des émotions aussi. Souvenez-vous de ce fait. Soyez respectueux, s’il vous plait.

J’apprécie le criticisme constructif. Je veux améliorer mon écriture, et moi-même; je sais que j’ai aussi dit les choses avant penser. Mais on peut faire les suggestions sans devenir impolis.

S’il vous plait : respectez les autres. Pensez avant que vous typez.

Je suis fière d’être canadienne, et je suis fière de mon bilinguisme : mon écriture et ma diction en anglais et en français. Je choisis mes mots avec soins, car je ne veux pas que les personnes sentissent mal à l’aise.

Je suis aussi fière de mon habilité d’être discrète avec mes émotions négatives, de choisir mes mots avec soins (consciente de leur réception), et d’être une force positive dans le monde.

C’est une indication de mes buts ainsi-décris que j’ai écris cette note en français et non pas anglais; même après que cette personne m’a blessé, je ne veux pas la blesser de retours. Je la respecte encore, mais si cette personne sans nom continue à faire ces commentaires sans tact, je ne sais pas si je continuerai à la respecter. Je sais que cette personne lit mon blog, donc j’ai écrit ce message dans une langue que je ne pense pas qu’elle comprenne.

Peut-être je manque de courage.

(Et si cette personne me critique parce que je n’ai pas mis cette note au-dessous d’un LJ cut, je pense que je pleurai.)

An English translation may follow.

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J'espere que tu n'en as marre pas avec moi entre ces anglophones? je te respecte beaucoup, et j'suis desolee que qqn t'a mal respecte.

If it was myself, I do apologize Lauren.

Oh dude, it totally wasn't you! :) I always smile when I read your posts. You are an awesome person, and never forget that.

Oh thank goodness! I was worried, not knowing if any other french-speakers read your journal.

You're an awesome person too!

Oh, I deliberately picked French because I'm pretty sure that they DON'T speak it, and I above all enjoy avoiding confrontations. D:

Ah, I read it wrong then!

In any case, I hope they don't give you any more trouble, directly or indirectly. :/

Psst - we should totally meet for tea sometime soon. :) Also, send me an e-mail/private message with your mailing address, and I shall send you a postcard from across the pond! :)

(I would reply in kind, but my level of french is… insulting. Haha. If you want to screen this reply to keep it private, go ahead. I won't mind.)

Anyway, I think the internet would be a nicer place overall if people took the time to think before they wrote. You’re right: Because we only have text to go by there are so many ways in which simple words can be misconstrued. I’ve fallen into that trap as well, and have taken offensive where there was none meant. I will say that the opposite can be true as well, where people have meant me insult and I was like, “Oh right. Haha.” And they were all, “No. Seriously.”

So yeah, the internet community as a whole would be a better place if things were somehow made more clear.

Irregardless, there are times when it’s a simple miscommunication and times when the other person is being a dill-hole. Constructive criticism needs to be given and taken in a constructive matter, and it pains me to hear that someone is possibly giving you a hard time.

TL;DR: Does Avocado need to shank a bitch? :P

I wasn't even about my writing, really. :P It was just... yeah. Maybe they weren't even talking about me, but the timing of the post seemed to make me think so. And the fact that I've seen this person put someone else down before, too, but maybe I was misconstruing the tone of that post as well?

I just think that people need to be more considerate when they write online, and even in person. There are so many nicer ways to say things than many people actually use, you know?

Then again, maybe I was sitting on my high horse, speaking in a language that they can't understand. D: I dunno... Now I'm worried that THESE words about people being careful about what they say will be ALSO misconstrued...

Applying my "read for gist" skills here, making use of the similarities of Spanish and French... let's see if I can tell what you are saying. Bear in mind that I know zero about French, so do forgive me if I understand you wrong.

Could it be this post is about English-speaking people being somehow more rude (ruder?) than non-English speaking people?

I seem to have caught something about people writing the same way they think: quickly and without much deliberation... and you ask people to think how their messages could be interpreted before clicking on "send"...

Then you say something about how it's easy to misinterpret things in the Internet because it's hard to tell what the intention behind the words are, and that people may forget they are talking to actual people with feelings while on the net, and thus be lax in how rude they sound when posting things...

You are fine with constructive criticism, but you ask for basic respect for others. Impoliteness is not very conductive to good criticism, so think before you write... or something like that?

And this post stemmed from a certain person being rude to you...

Uh... if I'm wrecking things by posting this in English, feel free to delete it. If the entire purpose of posting this in French was so that that person wouldn't understand, then my comment defeats that purpose. I apologise if that's the case. ^^U

If I understood correctly, then I definitely agree with you. One of the things I can't stand about people is when they are rude, to me, or to other people. There are ways and ways in which to say things, and when you're trying to point out something which you think is wrong, that's when you need politeness the most, as criticism is hard to take even in the best of cases and from people you know well; in the net, we're all kind of strangers and it's easier to sound perhaps harsher that one meant (which is not to say there aren't people who may actually have wanted to sound that harsh in the first place).

Yay for similarities between romance languages! :D You have interpreted my text very well.

Yep, think before you write. It's easy to me misinterpreted. Don't be short with me, you know? ;_;

Well, part of it is that I hope that the person doesn't read this... but I wouldn't be adverse if people did understand. Even if you're not the person I have in mind, it's something that all people should follow, right? Be considerate!

...besides, I didn't mention them by name, so...?

All I ask is that people be considerate and respectful. If you have a suggestion, by all means, make it! ... Just be polite about it, don't sound write like you're sneering at me for being stupid, etc. Be careful about what you write, because without tone of voice and body language, it's really, really easy to come across as rude or angry, even if that wasn't your intention. That's why I rely on emoticons as a form of punctuation. ;)

Yay for similarities between romance languages! :D You have interpreted my text very well.

Yay! XD

(It would have been a different matter if this had been spoken instead of written, but let's not go there, ok? XD)

Plus there are some things that aren't similar to Spanish but are similar to English, so I have that to help, too (oh, Norman Conquest. There is so much I have to thank you for...).

It'd be interesting to read a translation of this text, to see how much I really understood... there were quite a few words that puzzled me ("'chaque'? 'maladroites'? 'trouve'? 'dernière'? is that something edible?" XD).

Even if you're not the person I have in mind, it's something that all people should follow, right? Be considerate!

Yup, yup. I sometimes get criticized in RL for being too formal... I address people older than me by more than five years or people with a social standing higher than mine (teachers or police officers, for example) with "usted", ("usted tiene" instead of "vos tenés") which is the most polite form Spanish has in my country... it can cause confusion, as the verbs are conjugated in the same way as the second person singular, and since Spanish often makes use of the "sujeto tácito" and relies on the verb to understand who we are talking to/about... (one of the hardest things to teach Spanish speakers is that you can't skip the subject in sentences, because the verbs don't have enough inflections for people to understand who we are talking about... we are so used to skipping the subject because it's understood, that we find adding it every time extremely tedious).

Anyway, the thing is, I prefer to be taken as too formal than risk being rude... unfortunately, it seems not many people share this point of view. -_-

Just be polite about it, don't sound write like you're sneering at me for being stupid, etc.

Oh, I hate it when people do that. >_<

Fine, you don't agree with me on some point... perhaps you're right, perhaps I am in the wrong... but that doesn't mean I'm any less intelligent or any less deserving of respect than you are.

Emoticons are a life saviour for me... but I've also learned that they don't do everything for you, either. Things can still be misinterpreted if you don't choose your words carefully, and the emoticons will only make it sound as if you're making fun of them. It's actually happened to me a couple fo times. Not everybody will understand that I'm not being serious when I include a winking emoticon. Now I only joke around in written form with people I know for a while and who are likely to understand what I mean, just in case. Better safe than sorry. :P

The linguistic effects of the Norman conquest fascinate me. :)

chaque = each, maladroites = tactless (coming from "mal" = bad and "adroit", meaning "clever"), trouve = find, dernière = last (as opposed to "premier", which is first)

Hmm... interesting! I like learning about formalities in other languages. :) Japanese is crazy for formalities. I think that I'm the same way; when in doubt, I speak politely. Of course, in English, it's mostly in the respectful tone, using "sir" or "madam" to address the person you're speaking to, using fewer conjunctions, and preferring some words over others.

I try to use emoticons sparingly, and only when it's absolutely necessary, like, the sentence would otherwise come across as far to serious or critical. :)

I could translate it. Gimme a minute, and I'll send it to you privately.

The linguistic effects of the Norman conquest fascinate me. :)

We studied them briefly in History of the English Language, and it sure clarified a few things for me... now I can cheerfully blame the Normans every time my students complain of English not being written phonetically. XD

(honestly, Spanish spoils us. except for the letter "h", which is mute, and for "b" and "v" and "c", "s" and "z" being pronounced exactly the same way (in Argentinean Spanish. In Spain there's actually differences), we really do write words the same way we speak them. We even have a very consistent way of stressing words in written form, unlike English, where it's basically guesswork for us. I've been studying English for fifteen years now, and I still can't stress words properly in connected speech. ^^U

Argentinean Spanish has a very clear structure for polite speech. Compare:

Voceo: "Má, me compraste el libro que te pedí?"

Usted: "Madre, me compró el libro que le pedí?"

Both mean "Mum/mother, did you buy me the book I asked you for?" but are in different levels of formality. Of course, nowadays you wouldn't speak that formally to your mother (though two geenrations ago we certainly did) unless you were joking. I tend to do that to my dad. It's a private joke between us because I was a singer in his choir and it somehow seemed wrong to adress him as "pá" ("dad") in fron of the other singers and I couldn't bring myself to call him by his name instead, so I went in an extremely opposite direction and started calling him ridiculously formal things like "mi progenitor", or "amado padre" ("progenitor of mine", "beloved father"), and using "usted" all the time. After I left the choir, I somehow never dropped the habit. XD

I should probably mention that when I said it's hard to teach students not to skip the subject, I meant when teaching them English. I forgot to add that part. In Spanish, it's bad form to add the subject every time.

Thanks for the translation! And you're right, I did get it right most of the time!! The finer points of your prose, though, were lost on me... I particularly liked the way you talked about "thinking the English word that is very similar to the French word for a female deer" bit. As a fellow writer and reader who appreciates word choice and saying things in ingenious ways, this made me grin. XD

And I wonder how many female Argentineans you know...? ;D

(But remember I'm more polite and careful about my grammar than your average Argentinean. Don't be too disappointed if you meet others who are not... we Argentineans have an unfortunate reputation - not entirely unfounded - for being rash, boisterous, rude and self-centered, particularly when out of our own country. I guess it's a defence mechanism? :P)

"and started calling him ridiculously formal things like "mi progenitor", or "amado padre"" I am HIGHLY amused. :3

I remember one high school English teacher telling us that for a whole year, she called her parents her "'rental units", which made them sound like cars. ;)

Ah, I see! That bit about subjects make sense. Yeah, in English, you have to spell it out to people. ;)

Yeah, I thought of that pun when I was thinking - what how DO I say the "b" word in French? And I knew that "biche" was a word in French, but it doesn't have insulting connotations and in fact is rather innocent - compare with the description "doe-eyed" in English.

Oh, I just have female Argentineans popping out of the wordwork, everywhere... ;)

Canadians are stereotypically soft-spoken and polite... and on a whole, we ARE more polite than some people, I would personally say (although we have a bad habit of not meaning it when we say "sorry" - it's really just reflex, so is it even polite at all...?), but some people are in for a rude shock when they meet some Canadians for the first time. ;) We can be just as loud and obnoxious as Americans if the mood strikes us.

Je pense que tu as raison. Je sais que j'ai souvent reformulé quelque chose sur l'internet parce que je ne savais pas comment il serait reçu. (Ou bien parce que je n'aimais pas le contenu, ou je ne savais pas comment dire ce que je voulais dire, mais ceci est quelue chose d'autre complétement, à mon avis.)

Je trouve aussi souvent des textes où l'écrivain(e) est anglophone, mais il y a énormément de fautes d'orthographe et de la grammaire! (Ceci n'est pas vraiment de ce que tu parles, mais je pense que c'est un peu lié.) Si c'est seulement une faute, je peux le comprendre car c'est facile de le faire (ou bien, ça pourrait être un typo). Je peux le comprendre si l'Anglais n'est pas votre langue maternelle, mais si t'es anglophone? S'il vous plaît, prendre un instant pour éditer ce que t'as écrit!

Et bien...si on prennait juste un peu de temps pour bien penser de ce qu'on dit, je pense que plusieurs problèmes sur l'internet n'éxisteront plus.

(J'espère que je n'ai pas fait trop de fautes de Français. C'est fait bien longtemps depuis que j'ai vraiment utilisé le Français. :( )

Ouais, je pensais aussi de la grammaire quand je parlais des textes des anglophones. Mon petit frère est une telle exemple. ;)

"Et bien...si on prennait juste un peu de temps pour bien penser de ce qu'on dit, je pense que plusieurs problèmes sur l'internet n'éxisteront plus." Je pense que tu as raison - c'est exactement ce que je veux dire. :)

Mais non, ton français est magnifique! ;) Je pense que j'avais plusieurs erreurs dans ma propre texte aussi. Ne t'inquiètes pas!

C'est bien, ça. J'ai toujours peur que la qualité de mon Français aurait si décroit depuis que j'ai pris un cours de Français et que je fais beaucoup d'erreurs que je ne remarques pas. <3

Je sais que tu es enregistré dans le cours de MLCS 300 dans l’automne – est-ce que tu la prends pour les cours de traduction anglais-français ou parce que tu veux traduire les langages comme la suédoise? Si tu prends FRENCH 254, ton français améliora très rapidement. J’ai trouvé tous les cours de traduction très utile. :3

Je prends les deux cours à la même fois, dans l'automne. (Je suis heureuse que j'ai FREN 254 dans l'automne, car j'ai FREN 310 dans l'hiver.) J'espère maintenant que les cours de FREB 354 et 454 ne seront pas en conflit avec les cours requises de linguistics qu'il faut que je prennes.

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